Missing facilities for Battersea Power

[harry]

The information page for most stations includes details of facilities.

For example, https://tfl.gov.uk/hub/stop/940GZZLUBST/baker-street-underground-station/ includes this:

But the corresponding information is missing from https://tfl.gov.uk/tube/stop/940GZZBPSUST/battersea-power-station-underground-station/?Input=Battersea+Power+Station+Underground+Station

The station is open, and its facilities have presumably been planned and known for several years. So shouldn’t they be already on the page by now?

[briantist]

@harry Also oddly, there is a rather good River Bus Pier a short walk away, that’s actually marked at street level and no mention of it on the tube map

But it does appear in “my app”. But that’s because it’s award-winning!

• We’re delighted to be able to share the news that our Real-Time Journey Dashboard won Innovation of the Year at last night’s Rail Business Awards.

[harry]

@briantist

there is a rather good River Bus Pier a short walk away, that’s actually marked at street level and no mention of it on the tube map

It looks like TFL needs to get us (collectively, not just the two of us) to beta test its publications

[harry]

It gets worse.

On https://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf I see this extract:

which according to the legend means this:

That in itself isn’t completely clear. It ought to be split into three keys (male/female, baby changing, accessible) but it isn’t. Nevertheless, other stations show just a subset of the keys, so it’s clearly intended that they are used as separate keys and when all the symbols show, all facilities are available. And the red colour indicates they’re behind the ticket gates.

But, are there actually any public toilets at the station?

I suspect not:

• from the platform to the ticket gate, I didn’t see any signage.
• nor did I see any toilets
• I asked the staff on duty at the ticket gate
• “There is, but you need a key to use it”.
• He had to leave the gate and go to the office to get the key
• We then went to a door in a very remote corner of the station, with still no signage except right outside the door
• He didn’t say there were public toilets elsewhere, nor did the signage outside the door.
• And again I didn’t see any on my way back to the platform.

[briantist]

@harry I’m not sure that TfL really wants to admit that the humans who use their system have bladders.

take…

where there are, indeed, three public toilets. But if you are actually at them but they aren’t open, it’s a 200 meter walk to the gate-line to ask for them to be unlocked if someone has “forgotten” them, which is another 200 meters back with a grumpy Underground person whilst one is “in need”…

I think the accessible toilet is on a “radar key”.

I also note that at Harrow-on-the-Hill there is actually a disabled toilet, but strangely, it’s the the top of a very long flight of stairs so doesn’t get a mention on the map you linked to…

[briantist]

@harry

It looks like TFL needs to get us (collectively, not just the two of us) to beta test its publications

Perhaps… I dream that TfL have a monthly data verification where teams staff are sent out onto the network to verify that the information that they have is still correct…

[briantist]

Another problem I found with the Toilets PDF

There’s only a single toilet at Cheshunt “in ticket hall” (as it says) which needs a Radar Key - which I now realise I could actually have bought from Amazon so non-accessible access isn’t possible.

[harry]

@briantist

I dream that TfL have a monthly data verification where teams staff are sent out onto the network to verify that the information that they have is still correct…

Oh, that would be good. And I would gladly accompany them and pretend to be somebody that hasn’t been to London and ask them to explain:

• why there are frequently no line diagrams at places where you have to decide whether to turn left or right
• why the signs say Westbound and Eastbound but diagrams show it going either North or South. Some hints:
  • tube maps sometimes show parts of a line going in a different direction to geography
  • the circle runs either clockwise or anticlockwise, it doesn’t go in any geographic direction
  • even with other lines, the line may substantially change direction in different parts of it, so a single direction for the entire line doesn’t make sense to a person using just part of it. Thus, “Towards Walthamstow” or “towards Brixton” would make more sense
• why many underground stations don’t show a plan of nearby bus stops, even if those bus stops aren’t clearly visible at the exit
• why bus stops that falsely claim to be “at stations” don’t always have clear signposts even if the station isn’t visible from the bus stop
• why, even when a station has toilets, they are often not prominently signposted between the platform and the exit
• why at some stations (eg Walthamstow Central) there are large “old technology” Next Train signs that appear to be pointing in both directions (because neither is lit) … and behind it, a barely legible electronic sign that pretends to replace it but only has tiny arrows pointing left or right. Couldn’t this have been better sorted by putting LEDs in the old box?
• why it’s not possible to buy a Freedom Pass Extension ticket online in advance (or better still, to register a payment card against the pass and be able to use the two together, being charged for just the extra cost of the non-FP part of the journey
• why some stations (Victoria, Waterloo) don’t have litter bins near eating areas and instead seem to think you should wait until a passing litter picker lets you use their bin
• why Liverpool Street took out perfectly functional hand dryers and replaced them with hard to find dryers hidden behind mirrors – then made it worse by installing them too far from where the person stands and fitted with sensors that are too insensitive and need to be restarted 8 times before hands become dry

And several questions for a similar exercise with whoever’s responsible for the design of the journey planner and the API behind it:

• why journey results tell me to take H&C but the electronic signs on the shared platform show only destinations, not a line
• why JP just says the line name (eg Northern Line) even though on some platforms we need to take a different exit depending whether we need West or East
• when there are four possible Northern Line platforms at the station and trains for my destination will only ever go from one or two of them, why doesn’t JP say “platforms 2 or 4”. Even when there are line maps nearby, it’s time wasted (and extra congestion) that could be avoided by adding that information in the detailed results
• on a station with plural exits, why JP doesn’t tell you the correct exit to take to get to your bus stop and whether to turn left or right from the exit
• why, despite asking for probably five years or more, JP still can’t cope with planning a journey between two FP stations that ensures only FP-legal trains are used

[briantist]

@harry

These points are all valid!

I think I would summarise my personal observation is that I don’t think that “history” should trump “utility” when it comes to the tube network.

As much as I admire “London Underground Station Design Idiom” https://content.tfl.gov.uk/station-design-idiom-2.pdf and enjoyed watching Siddy Holloway and Tim Dunn doing their TV show Secrets of the London Underground | Yesterday Channel my observation is that “the average person” is more interested in being shown timely and correct information over being confused by historical signage. Your Walthamstow Victoria line one is a typical example, others are of the form showing “Edgeway Road Station Metropolitan Railway” on a building that is Circle and Hammersmith & City station.

The point about Euston to King’s Cross being “outer” by Circle Line, eastbound by H&C and Met, northbound on the Victoria and southbound on the Northern line ,

but actually run 100% parallel in the real world

must TfL version of fake news…

[mjcarchive]

One of my bus “favourites” is this. “Edmonton, Cambridge” is the destination displayed by short working buses and has been used for generations. The list of choices offered by Journey Planner does not include “Palmers Green, Cambridge Roundabout” which is what Journey Planner chooses to call it.

“Edmonton, Cambridge Roundabout” does bring up “Palmers Green, Cambridge Roundabout” but goodness knows why the first search brings up only far less related choices.

I could list any number of illogicalities. Any journey from “Wood Green (London), Lordship Lane” starts you off at the Forest Hill version of Lordship Lane. I’ve even been told when planning a journey from the first stop in Lordship Lane to “walk to Lordship Lane”, by which it means the stop of that name in Wood Green High Road.

I think I just have to accept that it is more difficult to get place/stop naming right for buses than for the tube and that any one bus stop has far fewer users than a tube station, so any hope of sorting everything is probably a forlorn hope. I’m not convinced that the logic was thought through properly in the first place though.

[briantist]

@mjcarchive

I’m not convinced that the logic was thought through properly in the first place though.

I think my point about history trumps utility perhaps is the explanation for this. It seems that people who run TfL on a day-to-day basis are very small-c conservative. It matters not that it’s totally illogical that the tiles are (say) green and white…

the hero worship of Leslie Green trumps the the Piccadilly Line pantone.

I’m all for preserving thing of value, but not at the expense of the primary goal of a public transport network: being simple for the public to use.

[briantist]

Another example of this is the name “Euston Road” inside Warren Street.

Historically interesting, perhaps. But it’s been wrong since 7 June 1908.

[harry]

@briantist

a disabled toilet, but strangely, it’s the the top of a very long flight of stairs so doesn’t get a mention on the map you linked to…

That’s very logical, despite being simultaneously illogical

[mjcarchive]

Gillespie Road would be another example. Spurs fans wanted the name changed back when the main attraction moved house…

“Edmonton, Cambridge” was the name used for decades; a bit more conservatism would have prevented it being moved into Palmers Green. Like many old pubs, the Cambridge itself only lives on as a junction name.

[briantist]

I’m always mystified by the worship of timber canopies.

(Snaresbrook Platform painted colour scheme with painted timber canopy)

they look awful, they don’t keep the rain off you when it’s wet and they don’t let the sun though when it’s nice. Why can’t TfL take a leaf out the Belgium book of decent stations?

(Liège-Guillemins railway station)

[netstruggler]

As I understand it, it is ‘English Heritage’ who tell TfL what they must preserve.

[briantist]

@netstruggler

I did wonder that, but when you put Snaresbrook into Search the List - Map Search | Historic England it doesn’t show the station…

[netstruggler]

It apparently qualifies as a ‘monument’ on the Heritage Gateway website.

Snaresbook Station

[briantist]

“The brick built station building was little altered from its steam days” is 100% what I’m on about!

What is the legal status of a heritagegateway.org.uk observation?

[mjcarchive]

It was thirty years ago but my impression of Brussels suburban stations as the somewhat austere airport train (and later the Eurostar) crawled in to the centre was not good. They would be a more appropriate point of comparison for a station like Snaresbrook.